Dr. Linda Laws - Black Man's Burden ch. 12 Discussion

Dr. Linda Laws 01:04

Educating.

Jean Greene 01:06

Okay.

Dr. Linda Laws 01:07

wThat wa the first thing I noticed as I started the chapter. And then going into the testimonials. It was interesting to read the interactions between those participants. And in reading that, education was mentioned several times. but the major part of the conference that I could tell was education. Where those farmers that came, they were educated by the speakers, but they were also educated by the persons telling their stories.

And it was interesting that we know that you have to work To get ahead. And so when those stories were being told, it was interesting that some of them seemed very hard. Hard in the sense that they didn't see down the road. They didn't see that light at the end of the tunnel. And so, to hear them talk about how they acquired land was very interesting. And I started to think, well, there were a few people. Families that I knew living not far from here that owned property

Jean Greene 02:30

Okay

Dr. Linda Laws 02:31

We were not one of them Well, we weren't my parents share crop right down the road less than three miles

Jean Greene 02:39

from here. Yes. Okay

Dr. Linda Laws 02:40

On 18

Jean Greene 02:41

Okay,

Dr. Linda Laws 02:42

And so to hear that there were farmers that owned land I didn't know that at the time because we didn't see those people. We only saw sharecroppers.

Jean Greene 02:54

Right.

Dr. Linda Laws 02:55

But if we had been in contact with some of the farmers further up this way, past the college, we probably would have experienced some of that because I know there are many, There were many, as we moved to Utica, we realized there were many farmers that had property, acres and acres of property between the college and the town.

Jean Greene 03:21

okay

Dr. Linda Laws 03:22

But we were farther down. Were

Jean Greene 03:24

were y'all close to carpenter?

Dr. Linda Laws 03:25

Yes.

Jean Greene 03:26

okay

Dr. Linda Laws 03:27

Close to Carpenter and that was pretty much all sharecropping,

Jean Greene 03:31

sharecropping

Dr. Linda Laws 03:32

Quite a few families. And so that was interesting. And then I thought about generational wealth.

Jean Greene 03:40

right

Dr. Linda Laws 03:41

So if we had, and I don't know where all of these farmers came from.

Jean Greene 03:45

right? It really isn't

Dr. Linda Laws 03:47

So that would be interesting if you wanted to do a little research to find. Where did they come from? Where did they live? And if many of them lived, and I think they did, in this area, vicinity of, of the college,

Jean Greene 04:02

yes.

Dr. Linda Laws 04:03

what happened to the generational wealth?

Jean Greene 04:06

What happened to that land?

Dr. Linda Laws 04:07

Yes, yes, what happened to that land? We know the Williams on Chapman Road and Miss Sini, Williams Ms. Sini, was it Williams? Ms. Sini lived up 18

Jean Greene 04:20

Ms.

Dr. Linda Laws 04:21

Ms. Bland the McKinley's up 18 before you get to the town.

Jean Greene 04:26

okay

Dr. Linda Laws 04:26

They had property. And we, we heard about the property because we heard about it when it was being sold. So that would be interesting to find out where those farmers were, where they came from. you but you

Jean Greene 04:46

As with many families, the children didn't carry on in the tradition of their parents, or their grandparents. And so, is this what would have happened?

Dr. Linda Laws 05:01

I'm thinking so. Mm-Hmm. . I'm thinking so because as younger folks moved up, like we moved outta carpenter into Utica. Mm-Hmm. . And I thought about the house that we moved into. We moved into a small frame house, but it was a new house. Mm-Hmm. . It didn't have plumbing, indoor plumbing when we moved there, but eventually. Dad put indoor plumbing in. And but we had what was called a Cadillac of a toilet. Outdoor toilet. It had a concrete Top it had a wooden bottom. It was a Cadillac of a toilet, you

Jean Greene 05:37

it in like a traditional outhouse?

Dr. Linda Laws 05:38

Yes, that's what it was

Jean Greene 05:40

it was. Okay. But

Dr. Linda Laws 05:43

but but anyway, I'd been so young I didn't realize, how he, they acquired that and I'm sure with your studies in this area with Mr. Hoseclaw, you have heard the name Shine Davis.

Jean Greene 05:59

Oh, yes.

Dr. Linda Laws 06:00

Well, Shine Davis had a piece of property on Marsden Road up near where the dollar store is. It used to be called I believe it was Hillcrest. A little street was called Hillcrest, and he sold lots. Property to blacks and my dad, my sister, they were one of the two and they bought that property and built the house. Well, we moved out of Carpenter and then many of those young people in the area moved out of Utica.

Jean Greene 06:33

Okay.

Dr. Linda Laws 06:33

they kept going. They wanted something new. different, because in one piece in here, if you recall, near the end of the book, he was talking about some very hard to read. Things about black, Negro women.

Jean Greene 06:54

Yes. That was difficult.

Dr. Linda Laws 06:55

was, that was difficult to read. But you notice, he said, the educated Negro woman, and I'm not quoting, would not, if she took a job as a maid, would not some of the things that would go on in the homes of the white.

Jean Greene 07:19

you know, thank You for bringing that up because that that was difficult to read and on a couple levels. One, because you don't usually think of black women having to endure assaults or whatever when they go, were going into the house to do work. And when Holtzclaw said he had some young women who refused to work in some houses because they were not, and I'm putting this in quotation marks, protected.

And that black families, black fathers and mothers would not want their daughters going into houses where they would not be protected. It's something that's known but unspoken that this sort of abuse happened. Yeah. And that some, the distinction Holtzclaw makes sometimes between the educated and uneducated is sometimes a little difficult in 2024 to kind of come to terms with but it's, There was a quote unquote, and I'm not quoting him, I'm putting my quote unquote on it, a certain class of woman that would have encouraged some sort of relationship like that, but an educated woman would not, black

Dr. Linda Laws 08:38

That's true. And did you notice when in going through the chapter, what made it difficult also was that, We started after a few pages talking about the conference, the Farmers Conference. Then we moved into talking about the Grand Jury and what the Grand Jury was looking at. And so I was kind of wondering, okay,

Jean Greene 09:04

why did we have this dichotomy here? Yeah, It's

Dr. Linda Laws 09:07

packed. It's packed with these different Writings, and I'm trying to, yeah, and I'm trying to see, okay, now where's the connection? But I think the connection goes back to education. If we educate young women and men, they will rise above. A lot of what they're dealing with now, during that time. and so each part in that chapter, and, that's what he's known for, education. The other thing I noticed, is that they did not put a town. purposely, I would think so. And I said, well, they didn't want to, Put any light on

Jean Greene 09:55

Yeah, where was he talking? Was this Utica? Was this Raymond? Was this Vicksburg? Where was this?

Dr. Linda Laws 10:00

Yes. That's what I was doing. Wow. Wow. So that was interesting. And then I said, well, you know, when you look at where we are now with book banning,

Jean Greene 10:11

Mm hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 10:12

maybe he saw that coming,

Jean Greene 10:15

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Linda Laws 10:16

that if I include this in this book, This book will not be well received,

Jean Greene 10:23

That's a, that's a good point, Dr. Laws because I struggled with how Holtzclaw wrote this book to possibly gain more funders. So he would not possibly have wanted to offend those potential funders. And if you name names and point fingers, somebody's going to be offended.

Dr. Linda Laws 10:49

Yes, yes.

Jean Greene 10:50

So that was showed a lot of savvy on his part.

Dr. Linda Laws 10:54

It did, it did. The piece and I'm jumping all over

Jean Greene 10:58

That's all right. That's all right. That's why we're here.

Dr. Linda Laws 11:01

But the piece where he talks about this property that they were going to purchase

Jean Greene 11:06

yes,

Dr. Linda Laws 11:07

And the owner reneged,

Jean Greene 11:10

but told him that even told the lawyer that everything was fine until the day of the sale.

Dr. Linda Laws 11:19

Yes. And, and keep in mind. Some of his friends said you should sue him, but he was encouraged by the lawyer and others, not white friends, not to do that, that it would be better to leave it alone and look for other properties, because they were looking at peace. And they were looking at, again, I think, going back to what you said about funding. If you sue this person, you might not get funding from somebody else. That, when they see what you've done. And he was, appeared to me to be a person that believed in making connections.

Jean Greene 12:06

Mm hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 12:07

Not join in any one group.

Jean Greene 12:11

That's true.

Dr. Linda Laws 12:11

He, he was able to talk to and associate with different groups. And that's in the beginning of the chapter. And as you see it, it's near the end of the chapter. Where he's invited to speak to this group. What was it called? The sociological group near the end, Congress. He was invited to speak to them after speaking to them. He was invited back to speak again. Then he was invited into this group. And it was a group to possibly get race relations to move into a positive direction. Space or area or start that conversation. So he was, he was, he was a person that could do that with any

type of groups and people even though we knew a whole lot of other stuff was going on. He was able to do that. That was very interesting to me.

Jean Greene 13:13

It was, it, that one of the things Dr. Laws that I and, and I, I told you this, I struggled with was knowing the reality of what was going on around him. And in the time, what the time was like in this state and the people who were in power in the state and the way he phrased what was going on in the community, I would have I'd have to stop reading for a second ago. Okay. All right. Why is he talking like this? Why is he putting it in, in this, in this light, in this tone? And Talking about the, the land, Dr. Laws, you know, I think they were trying to get 18 acres.

Dr. Linda Laws 13:57

Yes.

Jean Greene 13:58

wasn't much. and then that fell through and then here we are sitting 121 years later on the 2, 000 acres he got. Would he have had that kind of success if he had followed the the advice of his friends to sue the first time?

Dr. Linda Laws 14:15

Probably not.

Jean Greene 14:16

Yeah.

Dr. Linda Laws 14:17

Probably not. He, he was good. Not in this book, but if you the first book, not, what's the other title?

Jean Greene 14:25

Scholar in Ebony. yes. Mm hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 14:27

You remember, remember in that book? It was mentioned that he would not join a particular denomination in the area.

Jean Greene 14:37

Mm hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 14:38

And there were many.

Jean Greene 14:39

Yes.

Dr. Linda Laws 14:40

And it was like they were all pulling at him to join. But he didn't want to do that. Because he I understand why, because then you're going to be associated with that group. And you might not get what you need from all of the other groups. And so, it goes back to how he was able to associate with the groups that we're talking about in this chapter 12. And he was good at it. I mean,

Jean Greene 15:09

They was. If, if we even talk about the farmers for a minute and how I got a little amused at the way they were they would tell about their successes and then the people in the audience would question them. How did you do this? What, what do you mean? You know you paid that off in five years. How is that possible? So it, it was like everyone was held accountable. You know, you couldn't just say something and folks just took that on face value. They wanted to know exactly how you did it. What made you successful.

The one man who talked about how the people in the community would talk to his wife and his daughter. And he was being real frugal. And his wife and daughter didn't get to dress like the other folks going to church. But when he achieved his level of success, he was real proud to ride past them with his mule or his horse and let them see his success. But came, it shows that all of that came from a lot of work. But there was there were people in the audiences who there was one dr. Laws. Do you remember that was called the unalloyed?

Dr. Linda Laws 16:25

Yes

Jean Greene 16:26

african,

Dr. Linda Laws 16:29

And I had to, it was it was a word. And the way it is in this book, it was broken up because it could not fit on that page. I had to write it down to see what the word was.

Jean Greene 16:43

right

Dr. Linda Laws 16:44

And so you know, talking about the farmers, a lot of what they said, And they were questioned, some of them, by the length of time it took get the property, the land. I like the way the president, the presiding officer, and also some of the persons in the audience. They saw that it was moving towards some negativity in parts of it. Where they were being questioned and if you, the only way a certain person can get property, you have to be A mixed race. And then they would bring it back to focus on the positive part of it. And yes, you know, it takes time. Yes, it was not easy. In fact, one of them On page 146. And it says, I tell you. If you want anything, you got to work hard, and let people,

Jean Greene 17:50

Let pleasure. Let

Dr. Linda Laws 17:51

pleasure alone, till you get it. So, going back to the, man where the children and the wife had the mouths poked out, because they didn't have the things that others had. And so it was interesting to me. That, that kept coming up. They kept saying it. Not just, it may have been Wallace said that. I don't, I'm not sure. But yeah, Frank Wallace. So, but it kept coming up that they wanted to make sure Everybody knew it wasn't easy. It takes time. It takes dedication. You have to give up pleasure, and to make these things happen. So

Jean Greene 18:35

That instant gratification kind of pleasure.

Dr. Linda Laws 18:38

calms down. It calms later. Do you think, though a conference like that would work now?

Jean Greene 18:47

I think if it was well planned and well administered that it could work because the, the lessons that we're taught in that chapter about it takes hard work, it takes dedication, it takes time, it's something that needs to be. Constantly taught because the people in, in Holtzclaw's day, some of them wanted instant, instant wealth, instant success and anything worth having is worth working for. But you have to show people a positive example like these people in this book of what it took. One of the, one of the administrators, I think it was the president of it said that times were different now that that's why the, some of them were successful. And the man that had been questioned said in this quote I love times never got no different.

No, I'm sorry, times don't never get no different with a man that ain't got nothing. It doesn't matter what's going on. If you don't have anything,

Dr. Linda Laws 19:58

That's true.

Jean Greene 19:58

you just don't have anything and you have to work. So I, I'm thinking too, when we talk about relevance of Holtzclaw to today's time that we need to show that it takes a minute to get from level A to level F for financial security, that you don't walk into any situation having the pinnacle of it. You have to work and, pay your dues. And there's so much today of no dues paying. want it instantly. I want all of the success and I don't want to have to pay for it.

But these folks paid for it in sweat and You know, some of them went from sharecropping to land ownership You know and

Dr. Linda Laws 20:49

and some fail.

Jean Greene 20:50

and some fail

Dr. Linda Laws 20:51

One said he tried twice. But some failed. They didn't get it the first time.

Jean Greene 20:57

What is it it's not how many times you fall it's how many times you get up

Dr. Linda Laws 21:01

right.

Jean Greene 21:02

so yeah

Dr. Linda Laws 21:04

The reason I ask that question is when reading through this, I thought that, you know, In being in Utica, why couldn't we bring people together in a type of setting where they hear the testimonials, they hear the good, the bad, and the ugly to encourage others to do better. If it's possible, because a lot of what we're reading in this chapter. We're experiencing now,

Jean Greene 21:38

That's right.

Dr. Linda Laws 21:39

And I've my pastor said Sunday, but several years ago, months ago, he said, we're not first. What is happening to us now.

Jean Greene 21:48

Mm hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 21:49

It's not, we're not the first ones. It has already happened to somebody else. We're just next. So could this be next? Could this be a catalyst? This Farmers Conference be a catalyst to push, not just young people, but some of the more, Middle aged folks that, and folks that are young or not necessarily teenagers, but are willing, that might want something better, but don't know how to get it. Like housing, for instance, in the area. A conference like this, where you go in and, you have speakers, and you're saying,

This is how I got a house. I didn't have property. It took me six years to pay for the land. Paid for the land. Then it took me two years to get enough money in the bank. So the bank would lend me money. Because you have to have some money. And so, it took two years to save that amount of money. Then we're able to start talking about a mortgage. But it won't come in six months. It's a process, but do we know, do they know that? Do they know it can be done, but you have to be willing to go through what we're talking about with these farmers.

you have to go through years, it might take ten, might take five, might take two.

Jean Greene 23:23

But you got to

Dr. Linda Laws 23:24

do it. You got to go through it.

Jean Greene 23:25

Sometimes I think we see Our parents or folks, our parents age, let's say I'm, I'm speaking as if I'm a younger person, we see someone, our parents age or a parent has what looks like an easy go of it, but you didn't see, I have to remind the person in my house when I was your age, I was working three jobs. One full time, two part time. You didn't see that because you were a child. All you saw was the result.

Dr. Linda Laws 24:00

Yes.

Jean Greene 24:01

You didn't see me juggling trying to pay which bill this month and which bill next month. So I think in our efforts as parents and as people to protect young folk from what we experienced, we have shackled them in a way.

Dr. Linda Laws 24:21

I, I think so.

Jean Greene 24:22

Because they have not seen the struggle. Some of them have. But a lot of them haven't, they see the results of the struggle because they see whatever level of success you have, but they don't know or have not, or don't remember what it took to get there. Don't remember the peanut butter sandwiches for supper

Dr. Linda Laws 24:42

Oh,

Jean Greene 24:44

or the, you know what I'm saying? So these, these examples in the book, the man saying that he ate cornbread and salt meat,

Dr. Linda Laws 24:52

Yes. He didn't say salt pork,

Jean Greene 24:54

Remember? He didn't say salt port. That's right. He said salt meat

Dr. Linda Laws 24:57

salt pork. Now, I was a little not understanding, because we had salt pork when I was growing up. Did he mean, it wasn't, was he talking about what he, they called it, or was it some other meat that was salted? think

Jean Greene 25:18

talking about what they called it, whatever they call that. I, I saw it as, you know, he's got some cornbread and some pot liquor and that's, that's salt meat. And they didn't have a lot of extra vegetables, maybe. And they didn't have a lot of molasses and, and cakes and stuff to go with that. He had What it took to keep him full to keep producing but he didn't have Maybe a chicken on the table every every sunday or something like that but Do you remember the days of pinto beans cornbread? and That was it for supper

Dr. Linda Laws 25:54

Oh, yes. I remember many of

Jean Greene 25:58

See what i'm

Dr. Linda Laws 25:58

And the reason I mention that is that I was wondering if he intended, well first he wanted to make sure you quoted him correctly.

Jean Greene 26:09

Yes.

Dr. Linda Laws 26:10

And so that's why I was wondering, okay, salt meat and salt pork, was it just the phrase they use? And he wanted them to quote him directly, or did they salt other kinds of meat? And he was saying, you know, he didn't say pork, salt pork. He said salt meat. So, were there other kinds of meats that maybe he was eating that was salted?

Jean Greene 26:37

know, how do you, how do you smoke meat? You know that if you have a smokehouse, you don't just smoke the hog. How do you, how do you preserve your beef? How do you, you know, you know what I'm saying? So if he was getting his, little bit of, grub out of his little smoke house, he had, he's right. It wasn't necessarily salt pork, you know? , but I was, real interested in the way he he, uh, expressed

Dr. Linda Laws 27:02

Yes.

Jean Greene 27:04

But no, there was no clarity on if it was, what, what specifically that meat was.

Dr. Linda Laws 27:10

Because I'm thinking they may have salted some other kinds of, of, of meat.

Jean Greene 27:14

meat. Well, some

Dr. Linda Laws 27:16

yes. And that's why he mentioned, made the correction. Right. And so, that's why I mentioned that.

Jean Greene 27:23

Mm-Hmm. . But when we get into, we're going to ease into the, problem of miscegenation that seemed to really be an issue. With them. I think about how in our day and time we talk about immigrants coming and, you know, they're going to take the jobs and they're going to do the this. And these folks in this time were talking about the white men having children with the black women and that it was going to create. What did it say? It was going to create something that threatened the Commonwealth, a mongrel race, which will be a menace to our country.

Dr. Linda Laws 28:02

Yes.

Jean Greene 28:03

That is no different than what is being said on whatever news program you listen to about the folks coming in that are disgrace and a threat to the country. The country. They even talk later about a horde. And I was thinking, Lord, a horde of foreign women coming in to do domestic work, a horde. And that these foreign women coming from Europe were going to take all the jobs domestic jobs because they would be more trustworthy than the, black women.

But they didn't call them black women. They called them old times, after the war, the darkies were trained, but that training has vanished now. So the training of black folks had vanished, and that was the training to be domestics, was it not? So yeah. They

Dr. Linda Laws 28:58

mention you couldn't find a cook anymore.

Jean Greene 29:01

Right.

Dr. Linda Laws 29:02

Right. That would be satisfactory. And again,

Jean Greene 29:07

Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 29:09

But next.

Jean Greene 29:10

Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 29:11

Because this happened way back then, and they were talking about ruining the blood or spoiling the blood or contaminating the blood, but that's all this is, this, when, in this part of that chapter,

Jean Greene 29:24

Exactly.

Dr. Linda Laws 29:24

not, it's back, it's still here, it didn't leave, it's still here.

Jean Greene 29:29

that then segues into the, the issue with these young women that, this also goes back to, and I know I'm skipping Dr. Laws, this goes back to what Booker T. Washington was accused of being a, he acquiesced to what the whites wanted blacks to be. And he trained black folks to be domestics, to be better cooks and better housekeepers and this sort of thing. And that's what W. E. B. Du Bois was opposed to. He wanted folks to go into academics and higher education. And there's nothing wrong with either of those. What helps is when you combine those

Dr. Linda Laws 30:12

yes.

Jean Greene 30:12

and eventually that is what happened. But they talk about what the average salary of a housemaid in the South was between six and ten dollars a month, a month. And then they're going into situations where they are not protected. So you're working for 6 a month and then you run the risk of being treated with disrespect. And so Holtzclaw's answer to that was, to try to do what to prepare the young women and offer them an out if they got into a situation where they felt threatened?

Dr. Linda Laws 31:03

I would think so. And you know, many times when. And what we do as educators. We want to know if a particular strategy worked.

Jean Greene 31:17

Right.

Dr. Linda Laws 31:18

So you go to the source. I present a training.

Jean Greene 31:23

Mm-Hmm. .

Dr. Linda Laws 31:24

And You have an evaluation at the end.

Jean Greene 31:27

Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 31:28

and you want a person to be honest about it. Not just tell me I'm good. But you want them to be honest. So you have an evaluation. And you take that evaluation and analyze the results of it to see what you need to change

Jean Greene 31:45

Mm hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 31:45

and what you might need to improve. Take out. You know, you revise before you present it again. And you remember he asked some of the girls, the young women,

Jean Greene 32:00

hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 32:01

about their experiences. And he had one that made a comment to let him know that there was some very Sexual kinds of things that were trying to happen when she was in that home. And he made a point that that one particular response was the most important one.

Jean Greene 32:30

hmm.

Dr. Linda Laws 32:30

so, I, mind, and thinking about, Mr. Holtzclaw, He made some adjustments in what he was doing, who they were seeing these girls to. And that could possibly have been some training. That went on. Yes, that went on. So, you know and like I say, he made a point to mention that one. He put emphasis on that one young woman that had those experiences, why she left that home. and that's what you do. You evaluate. And you see what worked and what didn't work. And if

Jean Greene 33:11

what we're doing. That's, that's what we're doing now. Right. We're, we're looking at in this, in the context of this campus, what will work, what programming will work here, what do we need to do to, have students or potential students show an interest in coming to this location. What are we offering? How are we providing adequate training and protections for them? So in that sense, looking at the example of Holtzclaw can inform how we work today.

Dr. Linda Laws 33:44

It really can. Not next.. We're not first. That's right. It's happening to us now. We're next. So, I read in this chapter, and what I gained from it, is that many of the things that he mentioned. all the way back are happening now.

Jean Greene 34:05

Mm hmm. Yes.

Dr. Linda Laws 34:07

We have we're having a conference now too. I hear we're having a farmer's

Jean Greene 34:12

Yes we are.

Dr. Linda Laws 34:13

Bringing back the farmer's

Jean Greene 34:15

right,

Dr. Linda Laws 34:15

Okay. When he did had the the speaking engagements with this society, logical society, and he was asked to speak, he moved into what that grand jury was talking about, and he moved to the Negro girls being in homes where they were not protected and all of these things, if you notice. All of these things are happening now.

Jean Greene 34:42

Yeah.

Dr. Linda Laws 34:42

They're happening now. The race riot, he said, what, in that paper, they called that incident about the race riot.

Jean Greene 34:50

men that were drinking, not drinking, they were, they were on some sort of drug. Cocaine. Cocaine. Exactly.

Dr. Linda Laws 34:56

I'm wondering, where did they

Jean Greene 34:57

Where did they get cocaine back in that day, you know, how could they afford that?

Dr. Linda Laws 35:02

That was, I was wondering where. And he mentioned the papers. The papers. would highlight all that negative. Just like now. So we're actually just next. We're not first.

Jean Greene 35:16

nothing new under the Sun and the pendulum always swings back I had a professor once talked about the cycle of history was like when the cycle, it was like a pendulum and it would swing one way until it reached its pinnacle and it would swing back. And you know, if you, if you stay on the, upside of the ground, if you stay alive long enough, You'll get to see some of that in practice, in happening, and what we're looking at now, which makes Holtzclaw and this story so relevant, is there are duplications, as you said, of what went on in this book happening today, but the attitudes that were alive and well in 1915, when he wrote this book, are just as active and Today, they may have a different title.

They may be the, the mode of the transmission of the information may be a little more sophisticated than a newsprint and telegraph, but it's still put out there. And it's still passed on. So we need to counteract that with the positivity and the training that Holtzclaw provided us. The example that

Dr. Linda Laws 36:35

example.

Jean Greene 36:36

provided for us.

Dr. Linda Laws 36:38

Love Fest.

Jean Greene 36:40

Fest.

Dr. Linda Laws 36:41

He mentioned, on the last page, when you said the terms and all, he mentioned a love fest when he was meeting with these groups in the last part of the chapter, and I thought about it, and I said, now, I didn't know they would have used that

Jean Greene 36:57

the term love

Dr. Linda Laws 36:59

fest, all the way back there, but he

Jean Greene 37:01

Well, you know

Dr. Linda Laws 37:02

had a love, it was like a love fest.

Jean Greene 37:06

Oh, well.

Dr. Linda Laws 37:07

see it, it's on 158, the very first sentence.

Jean Greene 37:12

Oh, yes. Yes. Sort of a love

Dr. Linda Laws 37:18

And that was when he was working with that group where he had done those addresses, and they had gotten to be so friendly, and, called it a, it was like a

Jean Greene 37:26

the men turned in to be sort of a love fest. spirit of goodwill was in the air. that Southern Sociological Congress was That's what he was talking about Oh goodness dr. Laws, I thank you for joining me today Is there anything else you want to add before we bring this to a close?

Dr. Linda Laws 37:49

Only that. Because Mr. Holtzclaw was here, and we see his works, we've seen his works. Some of them are not visible now in the area. I would like to see us duplicate some of the things that he did. Like the Farmers Conference. It might not be a farmer's conference, but a type of gathering where we can bring people together to learn and grow and hear, and when these stories are told, you have something else to give them at the end. I bought 100 acres of land. It took me 10 years, but this is how to do You know, where they will come, learn, and grow. And to grow this area that would be major. So I'm going to let you do it.

Jean Greene 38:54

Thank you, Dr. Laws. I appreciate that. And I wanna thank you too, Dr. Laws, for agreeing to join me today for this discussion. I have thoroughly enjoyed it and I hope that our listeners enjoyed it and we look forward next time to the reading of chapter 13. Thank you for joining

Dr. Linda Laws 39:15

Thank you.